I have a Black G6 GT Loaded and love it. I recently blacked out my windows threw a flowmaster on it, and had a custom intake made for it... It fly's.. I dyno tested it before and after. Before is 160 at the wheels and now I am up to 185 at the wheels and about 225hp at the crank. I will have pics soon. Awesome car getting the hood soon.

So just with a flowmaster and a custom intake you made 25 extra horse power :bs:

He must have riceboy stickers on the car for that much of a power gain. I would love to see how he mounted an aftermarket muffler though.

Bought a K&N cone filter and had a performance shop make the intake. I straight piped it into a flowmaster 40 series mounted the same as the orignal muffler. Took out the resonator thats towards the center console as well. I had the dyno results done so make fun but stats dont lie. Thats one advantage of having it custom done , it isnt made by the store or a piece of plastic. I will have pics soon, sorry you think I lie. just sharing info.

No rice boy stickers though

Bought a K&N cone filter and had a performance shop make the intake. I straight piped it into a flowmaster 40 series mounted the same as the orignal muffler. Took out the resonator thats towards the center console as well. I had the dyno results done so make fun but stats dont lie. Thats one advantage of having it custom done , it isnt made by the store or a piece of plastic. I will have pics soon, sorry you think I lie. just sharing info.
First off noone is calling you a liar by any means. But honestly now a days you have got to have pictures or something to show us. Maybe you did get 25 horsepower from that more power to you. All I am saying is that I dont beileve it and that is my opinion take it or leave it. I will tell you though if you did get that much I am standing firm until I see pics!! :p

I will have pics up in about a week need to get them developed.

Sweet sounds good

need pics of how the muffler was mounted.

need pics of how the muffler was mounted.
Yes I would like to see how you have it mounted as well this would be a big help to some people here.

I want to see the intake.

I will get them developed today and post them as soon as I can. The muffler was easy. They took out the resonator muffler and the back on as well. Straight piped it and mounted the flowmaster where the stock one is.

I might have to take more to show you how it was mounted just took pics of the back of the car and the pipe but pics will be up today.

I bet it looks freakin nice.

have profile pic up trying to figure out how to show the rest through car domain

Pics r up... I need a better pic of my intake but it wraps down under the fender well. Hope you like em..

Thanks for the pics. They followed the stock exhaust route, put in a 90 degree bend, then a 14 inch flowmaster muffler. It should work with a 14 inch stainless Magnaflow then. Did they use 2.5 inch pipe or stick with the 2.25 size? As far as the intake, looks like they used a silicon MAF adapter for the open cone filter with a plastic heatshield. What size cone filter did they use? Can you take a pic without the shield on it?

the pipe goes straight under the fender well into a inverted cone filter dont remember what size but it was freakin hugh. No shield though. They used a 2.5 inch pipe with a 40 series muffler. I think I am going to upgrade to a camero muffler and dual it off.

they used a metal piped and formed it in threw the hole of the old intake.. Do you understand that... It is hard to explain until I get a better pic. Just threw a wax job on it today... looks sweet.

Somehow, I just can't believe a 25 hp increase from the mods that you listed. :confused:

10 hp maybe, and thats a BIG maybe. He just made the car "breath" better. With the larger exhaust he would gain a little top end HP but also lose low end torque. The cone filter in the fender well is not a good location at all. It could get wet when it rains, driving through puddles, winter slush even going through the carwash. The mods that he made are really null and void anyway. The PCM is just going to readjusts fuel/spark to compensate. Please post the dyno run slip to make us believers!!!

First off most cold air intake goes into the fender well, they have on all of my cars. The intake gave me a 10 hp gain. Since there is a fender well cover how they hell will it get wet anyway. My other cars did fine. Dont ask for me to post crap and give you guys ideas what to do with your G6's if you are just going to shoot them down. Why the heck would I lie, I showed you that i did the mods that you didn't believe in the first place .Thought mine would give some insight in what you guys could do. You go get mods done to yours and you tell me what you think then. Hows your G6 running..... Once you do some mods let me know, I would be very interested to know what you have done.

Is yours a GT of a BASE!! Since when did you become an expert on the G6 anyway...

Sorry just wanted to share info as an ownre to help you out. Do the mods and let me know you gain.

Go to cardomian.com and look at the other g6 that has mods done to it. He also got a gain of 10 hp from his intake, and he chipped his as well.

its under EVANS RIDE

Relax guys, if you have a dyno slip post it up, lots of us would like to look at it.

Is yours a GT of a BASE!! Since when did you become an expert on the G6 anyway...
First off little man, your attitude needs an adjustment!!! Second, you have got to throw away those riceboy sport compact mags of yours. Fender well mounted filters are very bad for several reasons that I won't get into here. Heres a few of pics of my othere vehicles with intakes.

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/5/web/269000-269999/269351_78_full.jpg


http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/5/web/785000-785999/785584_8_full.jpg

You shouldn't getto rig an intake system if you want your engine to last!!!

I have never bought any magazines never will, I dont believe in that crap. Your intakes look nice, too bad it is gettin warm air from the engine, but look like they do the job. Not a riceboy only buy american cars, only sell americans cars, thats my job.

By the way i am not a little man, and i didnt ghetto rig it. i had a performance shop custom make it so just chill.

how much power you get from a new exhaust system on average??

160whp stock...my god thats pathetic.

how much power you get from a new exhaust system on average??

Lesson One:

First, your engine is nothing more than a big air pump! When you replace the intake and exhaust, your allowing it to "breath" better. Not a lot, with the stock intake mainifolds, TB and so on, but just a little bit. NOw, the basic premise behind a higher flowing exhaust is to allow more air to move through the motor by reducing restrictions on what goes out. However, motors work better with a certain amount of backpressure, or else you will lose low end torque and power. This is especially notable in most Honda cars, do to the already scarce low-end power. So basically, a performance exhaust will increase your motors breathing ability, and create some additional top end power, but if you go too large without modifying other parts of the motor to allow everything to work together like putting on headers, it can also cut a significant amount of power.

Now, my personal feelings about your set up is first, you went to big on the exhaust at 2.5 inches. 2.25 inches is fine for the 12 valve pushrod 3500 V6. Second, the intake. It's not C.A.R.B. legal which means you voided your warranty and you won't pass emissions in any of the "green states." Yesterday I pulled out the passanger side headlight and the stock snorkel on my G6 and air passage to the filter box is close to 5 inches wide, more than enough airflow. A K&N panel is all the car needs. Again, the 3500 is not a high reving VTEC. With the ricer intake and your "better flowing" exhaust your loosing low end torque!! You should be able to feel it, but I guess that "resonating your teeth out" Flowmaster makes you think you have a fast car. Put a guy in stock G6 next to yours at a redlight and he will pull on you right off the line. You might catch him but you will have to redline second gear and hold it there but that might grenade your engine.

Just for giggles I raced a Honda S2000 the other night. I took him off the line up until 60, then we were nose to nose until 80 when he proceeded to pull away from me. Again, our cars have low end pulling power, not top end horsepower. You have killed your low end for a few upper end hp!!!

If you doubt this and you really work for a dealership, go have a talk with one of your technicians.

Well I beat a Prelude ,Celica GT and a Mazda 6 and I dont feel like I have lost any power. They were surprised that I beat them so take it how you want. My friend has A G6 GT with the same set up except the exhaust and I killed him. So.... I dont know what to tell you. I didnt go 2.5 I kept 2.25 just checked that. These cars are fun and I dont care what you think. Lets just drop it and have fun with them K. They are fun to drag and I wouldn't mind racing any G6 I would be more than welcome to do that. I think it's funny that you have nothing done to yours but you talk like you can beat anybody.. But what are we kidding we will never know. Good luck with your G6 keep me posted on new mods. K

If you think a stock G6 can beat mine you dont know much anyway. I doubt a stock G6 can beat my car that got a gain of 20+ hp anyday. I owuld love to see it. But anyway... just had to say that.

If you think a stock G6 can beat mine you dont know much anyway. I doubt a stock G6 can beat my car that got a gain of 20+ hp anyday. I owuld love to see it. But anyway... just had to say that.

You need to seriously get your head out of your a** and grow up. You did nothing to your car to make it gain 20+ hp!!!!!!!!!!!!! Post the dyno slip WITH YOUR cars info on it!!!! As far as beating a Prelude, Toy Celica GT and a Mazda 6 series, well, that aint saying much. My '96 Explorer could do it too. The only way you could beat a stock G6 with your setup is if I were to push your car with my father in laws Dodge pick up with a hemi in it!!!!

You sound pretty stupid saying a stock g6 can beat my G6. I forgot mods make your car slower.... RIGHT!! I didn't free up anything. Actually I would like to see you race any of those cars fixed up with your stock pile. Try it, see where you get, cause I lost with my car stock and kicked there a** afterwards. so dont say your car can beat mine. Okay lets say i put on my intake and thats it. There's a gain of 10 hp. So how do you think that better airflow and more horsepowere is somehow slower... Just some insight into that.

I wish my father in law had a HEMI. LOL N 1

I wish my father in law had a HEMI. LOL N 1
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/negative9.jpg

lol thats funny. I think we are done here k man. We both will never agree. Lets just enjoy the car.

^Finally one of you has said it!

I was wondering if you could maybe post a pic of how they mounted the muffler from underneath? I've been to three exhaust shops and not one suggested I mount the Magnaflow I bought. All gave various reasons like, the "90 degree bend they would have to make would restrict the exhaust flow," or "the muffler would move up and down due to the lack of mounting points," and one said "theres not enough room between the trunk and the muffler for heat to escape, even if they re-used the stock heat shield!" They can't even custom bend me a new larger system due to the rear independent suspension. They would have to follow the stock pipe route and still have to make a restrictive 90 degree bend. This car is not mod friendly at all!!!

is the one have posted not good enough. I thought that kinda showed how they did it. Another way is to take out the middle muffler and mount your muffler there and pipe it all the way out. check out the pic at car domain if that doesnt help let me know. I took both mufflers out and mounted it just like the one we have now. But thats the advantage of having a flowmaster beacuse it is like the one we have. It doesnt move at all either it is pretty strudy. I had mine done at mienke. They always do a good job for me.

No dyno sheet scan??

Wheres the dyno sheets :rolleyes:

Well, I read this for the first time.

I won't say he lied about the 160hp dyno. I also won't say he lied about the 185hp dyno.

What I will say is this:

1) Usually (like 99% of the time) if someone does post true dyno numbers, they are usually posted like this xxx.xhp @ xxxx rpm. Most people don't just throw out a round number like "160hp" or "185hp"

2) Unless you dyno on the same dyno under the exact same conditions, it's moot. If you dyno'd the 160hp on Sunoco gas, having driven in 20mph traffic in 85 degree weather, then dyno'd the next day at 185hp on BP gas, having driven 65mph on the highway in 65 degree weather, then that 25hp increase could be only 10 actual net hp.

3) If your GT did dyno 160hp the first time, it dyno'd low. The 3500 should dyno around 170hp. The LX9 has been around for a while actually, and the previous models rated at 200hp seemed to be under-rated. On the Malibu sites, the LX9 seems to hover right around 170hp stock dyno. Some believe it's so the Malibu doesn't "step on the toes" of it's bigger brother, the Impala with the longer stroke LZE 3.5L.

4) On big 350hp+ cars that REALLY need to breathe, you don't get 25 WHEEL hp from an intake and muffler swap! In fact, most intakes and muffler replacements only change the power curve, and rarely actually increase the peek hp.

5) Did I hear that someone "chipped" their G6? You're kidding right? :p

6) The stock intake is a "cold air intake", the air is drawn in from in front of the right (passenger side) headlight in the lower fender well...The size of the intake tube, and intake manifold on either the 3500 or 3900 is not large enough to necessitate a large cone filter. I can guarantee the flow rate and IATs of the stock box are probably the same as your setup.

The bottleneck, if there exists one, on the 3500/3900 engine is the long intake tube (debatable) and the exhaust manifold.

I don't believe you gained 25 whp. I believe you may have gained a little hp along the line, probably changed the curve to where the power may not be as linear anymore (could be good or bad) which makes the car feel more powerful in certain acceleration scenarios, and probably gain a little more throttle response. But I wouldn't go around claiming you got 25 whp from your mods, or you'll end up with someone (like me and these others) calling you on it and pointing out the inaccuracies.

What he said ... only I am too lazy to type it all out. haha

Yeah LT/LS motors gain 10~15 at the wheels from both intake and exhaust mods. Still not near the 25 mark. :)

What he said ... only I am too lazy to type it all out. haha

Remember, I TALK TOO MUCH... :D

Also, why do you have two different names? Code 8 and Black Betty?

I have never seen a post litterd with so much falce information. (On both sides) I dont even know where to begin.

STOP BENCH RACING!

I have never bought any magazines never will, I dont believe in that crap. Your intakes look nice, too bad it is gettin warm air from the engine, but look like they do the job. Not a riceboy only buy american cars, only sell americans cars, thats my job.


OH, a 'CAR SALESMAN'!!!! that explains it ALL!!

well, all except, like asked before, why TWO NAMES, "CODE8" and "BLACK BETTY"????? do you have multiple personalities? :eek:

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/negative9.jpg


"BINGO!!!" :beer:

Sorry, just have to do this, scold me if you must - I recant my claim that I'm not calling liar on this one, I am:

From http://www.g6ownersclub.com/forum/showthread.php?t=326

05-18-2005, 10:58 AM "Hambone my pics will be up next week so all can see.... I do have before and after dyno results I will be posting in about a week or two."

** Says he has before and after results.

05-18-2005, 12:58 PM "Horsepower at the wheels is about 165hp I will tell the rest when my car is out of the shop."

** Are the after results a secret? And 165? I thought in this post it was 160? ;)

05-20-2005, 03:21 PM "I havent seen what my mods have done yet, 165hp before any mods have been done, i will let you know what they have gained when I get the results for them."

** Wait, what about the "after dyno result" he supposedly has? There's the 165 again.

Additionally, he claims the intake gave him "10hp", how does he know this. A dyno doesn't tell you which mod is producing how much hp :rolleyes: .

He's either full of it, or the "performance shop" is feeding these numbers to him in an effort to make it look like their "work" is working...

well every intake I've seen for the G6 is advertised as "adding about 10hp" so that's where it came from I'm assuming.

Mike

10hp is crank. hp at the wheels is a completely different number estimation. haha... Usually when we all talked RWHP numbers we would say a K&N is good for 5~7rwhp depending. Advertised gain from K&N was 15hp.

10hp is crank. hp at the wheels is a completely different number estimation. haha... Usually when we all talked RWHP numbers we would say a K&N is good for 5~7rwhp depending. Advertised gain from K&N was 15hp.Most claims by just about any company, unless they actually have dyno graph proof, is preceeded by the comment "up to" XX hp increase.

Additionally, as I stated before, many times this is not an addition to PEAK hp, but an increase of XXhp at some specific rpm - for instance, shifting the curve up 10hp at some point on the curve, not necessarily increasing peak hp output at all.

In fact, I've seen dyno's on many different aftermarket items where the after dyno indicated an increase in one area or shift up of the power curve, but yet a DECREASE in peak tq. For instance, a local guy here had a before run on his GTO at 290hp, had an LPE intake installed, and 1 hour later ran a 285hp dyno, but the tq increased across the range, and the HP was about 10 hp higher in the 2000-4000 rpm range.

For comparison sake, my stock dyno was 289.9hp (69` outside, ~60% humidity, ave of three pulls). After a smooth Auzzie intake tube, K&N panel filter, modification of the stock air box (3 hole mod), installation of SLP ML headers w/ cats, Borla cat-back, copper plugs (to replace the crappy iridium), and a Predator Tune, I ran a 315.3hp dyno (same dyno, 71` outside, ~70% humidity, ave of three pulls).

The hard core truth of the matter is 99% of the time, you can't add that much hp, that easily, with only a few mods. When you really get into building street machines and ACTUALLY dyno-ing your car, that's when reality hits you that this stuff on the market does NOT add the claimed hp, not usually even close, to what is advertised.

well every intake I've seen for the G6 is advertised as "adding about 10hp" so that's where it came from I'm assuming.

Mike
lol, that's like him going out and buying a 30 day supply of Myoplex Deluxe, working out for 30 days, and then going around telling everyone that he put on 20lbs of muscle because the box claimed he would.

If the intakes claimed an possible increase of 2-3 peak hp, with some possible larger increases along the power curve, and the chance of screwing up your MAF sensor, do you think they would sell well? Claiming "up to 10hp increase" certainly works better. :D

Most claims by just about any company, unless they actually have dyno graph proof, is preceeded by the comment "up to" XX hp increase.

Additionally, as I stated before, many times this is not an addition to PEAK hp, but an increase of XXhp at some specific rpm - for instance, shifting the curve up 10hp at some point on the curve, not necessarily increasing peak hp output at all.

In fact, I've seen dyno's on many different aftermarket items where the after dyno indicated an increase in one area or shift up of the power curve, but yet a DECREASE in peak tq. For instance, a local guy here had a before run on his GTO at 290hp, had an LPE intake installed, and 1 hour later ran a 285hp dyno, but the tq increased across the range, and the HP was about 10 hp higher in the 2000-4000 rpm range.

For comparison sake, my stock dyno was 289.9hp (69` outside, ~60% humidity, ave of three pulls). After a smooth Auzzie intake tube, K&N panel filter, modification of the stock air box (3 hole mod), installation of SLP ML headers w/ cats, Borla cat-back, copper plugs (to replace the crappy iridium), and a Predator Tune, I ran a 315.3hp dyno (same dyno, 71` outside, ~70% humidity, ave of three pulls).

The hard core truth of the matter is 99% of the time, you can't add that much hp, that easily, with only a few mods. When you really get into building street machines and ACTUALLY dyno-ing your car, that's when reality hits you that this stuff on the market does NOT add the claimed hp, not usually even close, to what is advertised.

In other words HP is Not Linier (SP?)

But I doubt on the G6's adding an intake it going to lower peak HP...

It would most likely increase peak HP slightly.. but it does also have the potential (as mentioned) to mess with power all the way along the powerband. For instance the CC306 cam I put in my LT1 raised my peak HP to ~350rwhp but took my peak trq from 325rwtq @ 2250rpm to peak trq at 405rwtq @ 3400rpm. Essentially changing the entire powerband enough that it no longer performed in the same manner (bad in one aspect..good in another)

It would most likely increase peak HP slightly.. but it does also have the potential (as mentioned) to mess with power all the way along the powerband. For instance the CC306 cam I put in my LT1 raised my peak HP to ~350rwhp but took my peak trq from 325rwtq @ 2250rpm to peak trq at 405rwtq @ 3400rpm. Essentially changing the entire powerband enough that it no longer performed in the same manner (bad in one aspect..good in another)
I understand the concept but you can’t compare a Cam to an intake. Changing a cam can completely change the characteristics of an engines torque curve depending on the profile, and intake not so much, granted it does have the ability to slightly change the curve but not nearly as much.

I think this is getting a bit technical, the bottom line is adding and intake is the first step in getting the air in smother, its not going to give drastic gains but none the less you'll see gains. 10WHP????? not on this engine, it all depends on how restrictive the stock system is. and to be honest the stock G6 system is not all that bad.

I think this is getting a bit technical, the bottom line is adding and intake is the first step in getting the air in smother, its not going to give drastic gains but none the less you'll see gains. 10WHP????? not on this engine, it all depends on how restrictive the stock system is. and to be honest the stock G6 system is not all that bad.The only thing "this" intake did was push the filter below the fender cover in an effort to get "colder" air, but as you can see, the stock location/airbox pulls virtually the same air anyway. Most intakes have their success come mostly from the addition of larger, smoother pipes to the TB, which "this" intake has none of. If there's any bottleneck, it's in the length and path through accordian turns the air has to take to get to the other side of the engine, as well as passing the air across the void between the radiator and the engine.

And while an intake certainly would not typically cause loss of power, some intakes (like the LPE did above) relocate the MAF or IAT (to get better throttle response and a feeling of better performance) which has a negative effect on sensors and AFs, LTFTs, etc. Many GTO owners ended up repositioning the IAT to the air box in an effort to get better results.

I guess in this "talk too much" mode I'm in again, the point is that the 3500/3900 isn't starving for air, so feeding it more air isn't very important, not stock at least. And the stock box is pulling air from outside the engine compartment, so there's no need for a "cold" air intake. If you want to improve the intake, make it shorter, and more inline with the TB, with the MAF as close to the air box and the IAT as close to the TB as possible.

The only thing "this" intake did was push the filter below the fender cover in an effort to get "colder" air, but as you can see, the stock location/airbox pulls virtually the same air anyway. Most intakes have their success come mostly from the addition of larger, smoother pipes to the TB, which "this" intake has none of. If there's any bottleneck, it's in the length and path through accordian turns the air has to take to get to the other side of the engine, as well as passing the air across the void between the radiator and the engine.

And while an intake certainly would not typically cause loss of power, some intakes (like the LPE did above) relocate the MAF or IAT (to get better throttle response and a feeling of better performance) which has a negative effect on sensors and AFs, LTFTs, etc. Many GTO owners ended up repositioning the IAT to the air box in an effort to get better results.

I guess in this "talk too much" mode I'm in again, the point is that the 3500/3900 isn't starving for air, so feeding it more air isn't very important, not stock at least. And the stock box is pulling air from outside the engine compartment, so there's no need for a "cold" air intake. If you want to improve the intake, make it shorter, and more inline with the TB, with the MAF as close to the air box and the IAT as close to the TB as possible.

Pretty much agree, you're not going to hurt anything by relocating the fliter. (Unless you wonder into a knee high puddle) But the smoother the better.

If you want to improve the intake, make it shorter, and more inline with the TB, with the MAF as close to the air box and the IAT as close to the TB as possible.

by george, i think he's GOT IT!!!!

by george, i think he's GOT IT!!!!

Really no way to do that on the G6.

Really no way to do that on the G6.
Never say "there's no way" :D .

Relocate the battery and move the fuse box back, and there's a way.

However, like you said, the box probably isn't that bad as it stands. Until you put headers, 3" main pipe or dual 2.25" pipes, and dual mufflers and exit on the G6, and replace the intake manifold and TB, there's no real reason to increase flow on the front end.

Never say "there's no way" :D .

Relocate the battery and move the fuse box back, and there's a way.

However, like you said, the box probably isn't that bad as it stands. Until you put headers, 3" main pipe or dual 2.25" pipes, and dual mufflers and exit on the G6, and replace the intake manifold and TB, there's no real reason to increase flow on the front end.
Well relocating the Battery for an intake it taking it a bit far lol. I might head to the dino next week and get a base line. But it probably wont be until I get back in Jan.

Yea but an open-element air filter is still gonna suck in more air than an airbox, leading to better throttle response. Yes the gains are minimal, but they're there, and as stated earlier, it's the first step to getting more air in the engine. The 3 most common "first" mods people do to their cars are intake, exhaust, and headers because those are the parts of the car where there's the most restriction. Once those are out of the way, you'll see better gains from future mods done to the engine, like a bigger manifold, throttle body, fuel injectors, MAF, computer chip..etc.

Mike

Blackrider - Correct :) Haha.. the concept was all I after. :)

Yea but an open-element air filter is still gonna suck in more air than an airbox, leading to better throttle response. Yes the gains are minimal, but they're there, and as stated earlier, it's the first step to getting more air in the engine. The 3 most common "first" mods people do to their cars are intake, exhaust, and headers because those are the parts of the car where there's the most restriction. Once those are out of the way, you'll see better gains from future mods done to the engine, like a bigger manifold, throttle body, fuel injectors, MAF, computer chip..etc.

Mike
Since we're getting technical... :D

Cone filters are 90% of the time a joke - not needed. Yes, they will move more air than a conventional panel filter because of surface area, but...You still have to push that air through the same small intake tube, through the same small TB, and through the same intake manifold. The panel filter will move more than enough air, a cone filter is an overkill. Don't you think 400hp V8's need considerable more air than our 3500/3900? But yet they still have the same size panel filter. I'm sure you've read all the various independent tests done on filters? I've yet to read one test that concluded a cone filter out-flowed a panel when in an actual intake application (unless of course it was mounted on a beast of an engine :) ) - K&N and the other's claims are based on flow testing the filter itself - suck air through the cone filter alone and it will flow more air, yes, but in actual application, that's a different story. Interestingly enough, there are several verifiable tests to be found that showed the K&N and the like flowed LESS air and trapped LESS particles than regular WIX or FRAM filters!

The reason aftermarket intakes cause changes is that they tend to get rid of the stock air box, which most are restrictive for sound purposes, and smooth out the intake passage. The cone filter actually is simply easier to attach to the end of an intake tube than to fabricated a brand new box.

I guarantee if all you did was bolt a cone filter to where the stock air box is, you'd see nothing and feel nothing (though you'd hear the intake a little more). Work the stock box a little (open it up) and put in a panel filter, and I'd guarantee you'd see the same flow rate at the TB as a cone filter bolted on there.

So you're basically saying the only thing a cone filter is good for is sound? It's funny you mentioned the 400hp V8s, because when I read that, I thought of all the modified GTOs and Trans Ams that I've seen with huge cone filters on them, and Vipers that have two filters attached to the end of an intake pipe split into a Y, which , yes is somewhat overkill, but they still needed something that could provide more CFM. Once you modify things like the exhaust or fuel system, you don't want your engine to be running rich because you decided to keep the stock airbox in there.

I think the stock airbox for the G6 is nice and great for delivering cold air, but even after you remove that tube behind the headlight, the air is still only coming in through a 3.5" hole in the bottom of the box. A hole that things like leaves and dirt gets sucked into and stick against the bottom of the panel filter. That can't be good for airflow.

Mike

So you're basically saying the only thing a cone filter is good for is sound? It's funny you mentioned the 400hp V8s, because when I read that, I thought of all the modified GTOs and Trans Ams that I've seen with huge cone filters on them, and Vipers that have two filters attached to the end of an intake pipe split into a Y, which , yes is somewhat overkill, but they still needed something that could provide more CFM. Once you modify things like the exhaust or fuel system, you don't want your engine to be running rich because you decided to keep the stock airbox in there.

I think the stock airbox for the G6 is nice and great for delivering cold air, but even after you remove that tube behind the headlight, the air is still only coming in through a 3.5" hole in the bottom of the box. A hole that things like leaves and dirt gets sucked into and stick against the bottom of the panel filter. That can't be good for airflow.

Mike
"Once you modify things like the exhaust or fuel system, you don't want your engine to be running rich because you decided to keep the stock airbox in there"

Yes, but this isn't about the airbox, it's about the filter. A panel filter will flow plenty of CFM. It's pretty much known that Cone filters are an overkill for CFM unless you start to get into forced induction, radical cams, big displacement, etc.

I've built and modified many V8s. I've seen tons of cars run 450whp with stock air boxes and panel filters, and not running rich. I can send you some videos of a stock GTO with only a steep cam (it was a good mix cam) swap pulling 388whp on a dyno on stock box and filter with great LTFTs. The cars that need those bid cone filters are cars where the mods they've done necessitate an increase in flow to the TB - once you make the filter the choke point, then yes. But most of the time all the other things on the intake line are the choke point, not the filter itself. But 99% of the intakes you buy that decrease all the other choke points, also come with a cone filter...Now all of the sudden people seem to think it's the filter causing all the good flow and forget the completely new intake system they installed.

Those cars you "see" don't mean they need that intake. Like I indicated above, the main reasons an intake works usually has nothing to very little to do with the actual filter, but rather the new larger, smoother piping, location of certain items, etc. People have time and again "stuck" a cone filter in place of their box, and got nothing from it on the dyno or trap times.

I'm not saying there comes a point where a cone filter's outflowing nature comes into play, but certainly not on a stock engine making "201hp" which has a small intake pipe and small just-about-everything-else. What I am saying is that if the stock tube is larger on say a GTO, the TB is larger, the intake manifold is larger, the displacement and cylinder count is larger, and it produces TWICE the crank HP, utilizing the same size intake box and panel filter, and doesn't run rich, then why would we even imagine some cone filter would be necessary to flow in our smaller, lower demand engine?

And for having "leaves" on my filter, well I can think of many more scenarios for many of the intakes out there with cone filters where I wouldn't want "something else" to happen either. There are negatives to anything but a completely closed box (and then there are negatives to that as well ;) )

EDIT: The K&N cone filters can flow, what, 800+ CFM? There's no way you need even half that with our engines. Cone filters are used mostly because a manufacturer can build a 1000 different intakes using one filter for all of them - it's a cheap way to just completely replace the box and kill any restrictions the box may have, but the actual flow of the filter is simply overkill. The stock G6 box has promise. Yes, the 3.5" hole is small, but how big is the intake tube? There's no turbo or Supercharger on our car, so the air isn't being forced through the intake tube, so the hole doesn't need to be anything significantly larger to still flow the same down that intake tube...It's like a drain in a bath tub - you can fill this huge tub with water, but it still has to drain slowly down the drain. Increase the drain size then you have to start thinking about increasing the tub size...

The reason you have seen those dual cones is simple.. Certain FI setups pull (TT for example) pull much more air than a typical N/A setup. Cars generating 1000+ HP usually have some insane intake setups.

The reason you have seen those dual cones is simple.. Certain FI setups pull (TT for example) pull much more air than a typical N/A setup. Cars generating 1000+ HP usually have some insane intake setups.I've seen (and driven once [that's all I've ever do]) many 800+ hp Toyota Supras. Interestingly enough, even on these beasts, they sometimes only have ONE cone filter. If one cone filter is enough to provide flow to these Big single Turbo monsters, it's probably overkill on our 3500/3900 cars. :D

Anyone familiar with the WRX/STI? Funny how the STI builds 8+ psi of boost through a tiny intake tube and a paper panel filter that's smaller than ours. ;)

Putting a cone filter on the end of a smoth intake pipe WILL net gains! how much? Not a hell of alot, but your still going to see gains. Bottom line.

Putting a cone filter on the end of a smoth intake pipe WILL net gains! how much? Not a hell of alot, but your still going to see gains. Bottom line.
Certainly not bottom line to industry experts who build these things ;). I wish building street cars was as "bottom line" simple as that. You did add the "smooth intake part" so I'll agree with THAT part of it, but the increase won't be from the filter. If your intake system can only flow 300 cfm, what use is an 800cfm filter when the panel filter is capable of 500cfm? None. You're all about not "bench racing", try searching the net for true tests on the filters themselves - I think you'd be surprised at true flow and performance results.

FWIW, I looked up some old numbers just to show true results of a K&N cone filter. Since I removed alot of stuff from my GTO when I sold it, I removed some stuff from the website. So I looked it up on ls1.com again.

The stock TB on my LS1 was good for about 530 max cfm. The ported one was good for about 560 cfm. This is max flow. I had an HSV intake pipe from australia installed with a K&N 9" cone toping it off and measured pressure drop and MAF flow. Not happy with IAT temps, I switched back to the stock box (the intake tube worked with the stock box or a cone filter - MAF and IAT were not relocated), reworked it to pull air from the side fender area as well, and used a K&N panel filter. IATs came back to very good, and CFM at the MAF was EXACTLY the same, but pressure drop was off by .05 psi in the cone filters favor. What does .05 psi mean? Nothing unless you're producing 500hp...However, being able to keep my IATs in check was more important.

Perhaps if you can explain to me why you think a cone filter is important, I'd be game. There's no question about the smooth intake. But what's the logical reasoning of putting a higher flowing XXX cfm filter on a car when the MAF and/or TB are only limited to XXXcfm?

Another thing to keep in mind when designing an intake is our limitation to TBs, and the necessity of still maintaining a neck-down and slight restriction for throttle response from our DBW throttle system. As you crack the throttle, it ramp controls how much lower TPS air get's in. On DBW cars, the programming takes the ramp into it's calculated idle air control. Hense, a neck down and "flow pinch" is important for good throttle response. One reason the ported and aftermarket TBs are not successful on 05+ GTOs with ET/DBW.

Certainly not bottom line to industry experts who build these things ;). I wish building street cars was as "bottom line" simple as that. You did add the "smooth intake part" so I'll agree with THAT part of it, but the increase won't be from the filter. If your intake system can only flow 300 cfm, what use is an 800cfm filter when the panel filter is capable of 500cfm? None. You're all about not "bench racing", try searching the net for true tests on the filters themselves - I think you'd be surprised at true flow and performance results.

FWIW, I looked up some old numbers just to show true results of a K&N cone filter. Since I removed alot of stuff from my GTO when I sold it, I removed some stuff from the website. So I looked it up on ls1.com again.

The stock TB on my LS1 was good for about 530 max cfm. The ported one was good for about 560 cfm. This is max flow. I had an HSV intake pipe from australia installed with a K&N 9" cone toping it off and measured pressure drop and MAF flow. Not happy with IAT temps, I switched back to the stock box (the intake tube worked with the stock box or a cone filter - MAF and IAT were not relocated), reworked it to pull air from the side fender area as well, and used a K&N panel filter. IATs came back to very good, and CFM at the MAF was EXACTLY the same, but pressure drop was off by .05 psi in the cone filters favor. What does .05 psi mean? Nothing unless you're producing 500hp...However, being able to keep my IATs in check was more important.

Perhaps if you can explain to me why you think a cone filter is important, I'd be game. There's no question about the smooth intake. But what's the logical reasoning of putting a higher flowing XXX cfm filter on a car when the MAF and/or TB are only limited to XXXcfm?

Another thing to keep in mind when designing an intake is our limitation to TBs, and the necessity of still maintaining a neck-down and slight restriction for throttle response from our DBW throttle system. As you crack the throttle, it ramp controls how much lower TPS air get's in. On DBW cars, the programming takes the ramp into it's calculated idle air control. Hense, a neck down and "flow pinch" is important for good throttle response. One reason the ported and aftermarket TBs are not successful on 05+ GTOs with ET/DBW.
Because it’s been Dino prove... What’s more bottom line than that? It all has to do with Air turbulence.
You are the only person that I have ever met in my life than argues this point so much.
So you are saying that if I smoothed out my intake tract and attached it to an air box setup it would do as much as if you placed a cone filter on the end? Just want to get this straight? You dont need to explain yourself anymore, I think you have taken care of that lol. I must say you have made one of the the most compelling argument I have had.

miscreant, everything you're saying makes sense to me. But Blackrider makes an excellent point. Companies don't sell an intake without providing some proof of gains.

The only way you're not gonna see any gains from an open-element filter is heatsoak. But that's not a problem with our cars since we have a nice little spot behind the headlight to position the filter.

Mike

Because it’s been Dino prove... What’s more bottom line than that? It all has to do with Air turbulence.
You are the only person that I have ever met in my life than argues this point so much.
So you are saying that if I smoothed out my intake tract and attached it to an air box setup it would do as much as if you placed a cone filter on the end? Just want to get this straight?
Dyno proven? Show me the dyno results where they compared a panel filter with a cone filter, all other things equal. You're arguing that an "intake tube and filter" does such-and-such, and I'm arguing that the filter isn't the key. How can you flow more air if you don't replace the things that LIMIT the flow in the first place? Tell me how you can get 800cfm of air through a throttle body that's, say, rated at 350cfm max???

Just taking some stock car and putting a complete intake system on it and showing increased dyno result does not indicate that the car wouldn't dyno the same with a panel filter in it's place. I'm NOT arguing that stock intake boxes are optimal from the factory, what I am arguing is that in most cases you can mod the stock box (I'm just talking about the box here, not the intake tube, elbows etc), mated to the new intake tube and install a high flow panel filter and get the SAME results as a cone. In some cases, not - but in many cases you can.

Let me tell you something concerning dynos, just FYI. What are in the instructions for nearly every mod you install including intakes? "Disconnect the battery"...It's not just for electrical reasons, it's to reboot/refresh the PCM. I can disconnect the battery on my G6 and pull about 2-3 hp more on the dyno just by doing that. Why? Because my PCM is completely cleared of all learned sensor data, and it takes 5-10 minutes just to bring the mixture back to "PCM optimal" which may not be HP optimal, if not alot longer. So these "manufacturers" run a dyno, install the intake, clear the PCM, and then do another dyno. Problem is that will result in skew'd info. Even if your car has no mods, and you install an intake on it, and let's say it does increase the flow and gives you HP, the PCM will adjust eventually, and adjust most of your HP gains back away by trimming. It's called PCM trim, and it's a whole nother ball game that I didn't think I needed to get into. Until you give the engine/PCM a reason to increase both fuel and air mixtures (like heads, intake manifold + TB), the PCM will trim it out for the most part. Why do you think you get a "tune"? So that you can permanently change the way the PCM interprets data and adjusts. The old Battery Disconnect is considered the "poor man's tune" when heading to the track. Just FYI.

So to answer your question, all things equal (smooth intake tube, same location, same IATs), a panel filter will flow the max the engine can handle, given the range of "engines" we're referring to. If you want to hear people talking about this exact opinion, head over to just about any boosted car site, where CFM is so very important. Try telling 99% of WRX or STI owners (just sold my modded 9-2x) that they need a cone filter even when producing over 300 whp on 10psi boost. Most are running STOCK air intakes and panel filters, lol! Talk to FI-Systems were most of my work was done. Ask them about intakes, where they have dyno after dyno to PROVE what I am saying. Heck, they don't even sell a single intake for the scoobies! I've never seen a crowd so into how each and every mod makes power and they test it religiously. It seems the american crowd is so caught up in just bolting stuff on and believing the claims of the manufacturers (or the butt dyno), but these guys over on NASIOC are religious about making sure it makes power. I've seen enough 2.0L scoobies bolt on intake after intake with no long term results, DYNO proven. I've also seen plenty of mustangs try the same thing. What about the cone filters that came out for the TA/WS6 Ram Airs? Why did everyone go back to recommending just the panel filters???

Companies don't sell an intake without providing some proof of gains.And you can say this with a straight face? Is this kinda like JBA shorties headers making more HP than Long tubes - supposedly "dyno proven"? What does K&N claim for their intakes, again ;) ? How about Hypertech's powerprogrammer which supposedly makes 50hp and 100lbs ft tq extra? Noone's seen any of these claims realized.

Now, to everyone, are you READING my posts? I'm NOT talking about the complete intake! I said from the start that the INTAKES will make power because they feature better flowing parts. The original post was about his intake mod which replaced NOTHING but dump the filter down into the fender well (the intake tube, etc is still STOCK). I'm talking about the necessity of a cone filter, and in some cases the necessity of actually replacing the air box. In most cases, a cone filter is overkill. In many cases, the stock box can be made to flow just fine, and a panel filter will flow plenty more than the engine needs. Would you pay $210 for a piece of plastic tube? But if it was a "complete" intake (tube and filter), now it's worth $210 to you, yes? Which do you think is easier, redesigning an airbox and utilizing a custom made panel filter, or just plumping a cone on there and be done with it? Before cones were even around main stream, how was everyone making all this power? How come Volant's intakes who used to use panel filters, are rated for the same gains with cone filters now (Volant had to switch to cones to save costs as their systems are naturally more expensive to built)?

Buy an intake for what it provides as a whole, but don't think for one minute that JUST bolting some "bigger" filter on your car will somehow make the intake tube, throttle body, intake runners, etc, breathe in more air...

And you can say this with a straight face? Is this kinda like JBA shorties headers making more HP than Long tubes - supposedly "dyno proven"? What does K&N claim for their intakes, again ;) ? How about Hypertech's powerprogrammer which supposedly makes 50hp and 100lbs ft tq extra? Noone's seen any of these claims realized.

Well, now I just know you're lying. Everyweek on Horsepower TV I watch these guys use the powerprogrammer and gain well OVER 50HP on their Ford and Chevy trucks. And they dyno both before AND after the reprogram ;)

As for your scooby claim, just go to cardomain.com, search the STis and sort by performance. Take a look at the first page and look at the mod list of some of the modded STis and see what kind of induction they're using. I believe it's called the K&N Typhoon system. A quick lookup of this intake system will show a dyno graph with a 12hp gain over stock.

I understand that the manifold can only take in a certain CFM, but how can we be sure that the stock intake/panel filter is delivering that much? With a cone, there's more surface area for maximum induction.

Mike

What about the cone filters that came out for the TA/WS6 Ram Airs? Why did everyone go back to recommending just the panel filters???

Thats because a LID has been dyno proven where as the cone filters didn't do anything but pull in heat soaked air. :) LOL :bowl:

I know what you are saying.. granted a higher flowing filter will help (IF you have reduced backpressure on the exhaust prior to the upgrade).. CFM flow at the throttle body dictates IF there is a gain and how much. Typically engines like ours (not designed for hi performance) are pretty well balanced from the factory. (Exhaust flow matching intake flow).. I dont think you should see any real gain switching filters without exhaust mods. Just me though.

Well, now I just know you're lying. Everyweek on Horsepower TV I watch these guys use the powerprogrammer and gain well OVER 50HP on their Ford and Chevy trucks. And they dyno both before AND after the reprogram ;)Do you believe everything you see on sponsored TV? Real world results have been less than claimed. I was merely making a point that a manufacturer's claims are typically the absolute best result they ever got, not the "typical" result that most will see.


As for your scooby claim, just go to cardomain.com, search the STis and sort by performance. Take a look at the first page and look at the mod list of some of the modded STis and see what kind of induction they're using. I believe it's called the K&N Typhoon system. A quick lookup of this intake system will show a dyno graph with a 12hp gain over stock.Well, first off, cardomain? Are you serious? You mean the place where everyone over inflates their rides? ;)

I wouldn't use "cardomain" as anything but a picture finder.

And again, please don't show me "dyno charts" from manufacturers. I don't care. If I went by dyno charts by manufacturers then my GTO would have been making well over 450hp or my 9-2x would have been putting 200+hp to the ground. It would be a great day in mod-land if parts really lived up to the manufacturers claims...If you want real hard core data, instead of spending time on cardomain or the manufacturers sites, go to the actual forums (or better yet the meets) where people are actually using, testing, installing this stuff, and where actual installers/tech shops post their actual results on these parts.


I understand that the manifold can only take in a certain CFM, but how can we be sure that the stock intake/panel filter is delivering that much? With a cone, there's more surface area for maximum induction.Again, where did I say anything about the stock panel filter? And the intake tube isn't in discussion here either because it does need replaced. I've said from the start that the intake tube looks like it needs work. Never said anything to the contrary. But the panel filter is quite large, and I can guarantee that it flows enough - on nearly all stock cars, the filter is not the choke point, the MAF, intake tube, and TB are typically the choke points. And again I'm not saying the stock filter couldn't be replaced if you wanted to, though real world "independent" tests have shown these other filters don't flow much more at all, and don't filter worth a darn. I'm saying that a drop in panel filter (you take your choice, Fram Air Hog, Accel, K&N, paper) will provide plenty of flow, a cone is not needed. The box might need a little work, though looking at the size of the intake hole, it's probably suffient until you start opening the intake system up. The TB is significantly smaller than my stock LS1 TB sitting in my garage, so it's going to be flowing significantly less than 520-530cfm at max.

Again, this all started because the guy put a cone filter on the end of a STOCK intake tube and thought it was doing something (and made some eronious claims [with numbers that changed back and forth]), and I said it was a waste, and then all this "if you put a cone filter on the end it WILL do something" started comin up, which is false unless your engine actually needs 800cfm of flow ;). This isn't a discussion of anything more than a cone filter being overkill. I never made a claim that the stock intake as a system was sufficient, it probably can be improved, not in total cfm flow, but in smooth efficient flow with minimal turbulence.

But, again, this is all really a moot point. You won't see any major gains even from increased flow until you retune the engine. What do you think the MAF is for? The more air that flows past the MAF, the more fuel the PCM will add to maintain a correct mixture, and then the PCM will retard timing to prevent detonation (not that it would happen, but the PCM attempt to prevent the situation from occuring). GM and most american computers over-compensate in stock form for more air coming in by adding more fuel and reducing timing to resist lean conditions from the added air, much more so than many imports. Engines with under 9.0 CR are much less prone to detonation and more responsive to intake mods. But finding an engine under that is getting more and more difficult. Higher compression ratio means more prone to detonation, which means more conservative PCM programming, which means more KR when more air is forced in, which means less and less added performance without tuning...

Until you reprogram the PCM, you'll see immediate gains from alot of mods, but they will disappear. This is one other reason why just putting a cone filter on doesn't do jack. You increase the flow past the MAF, the MAF senses more flow, but yet the air get's choked at the intake tube causing you to run rich and causing even more KR (Knock Retard).

I dont think you should see any real gain switching filters without exhaust mods. Just me though.That's true, but also keep in mind that with the combustion process, exhaust is forced out of the engine. On the intake side, nothing is being forced (there is pressure drop resulting in some "sucking" but certainly not comparable). So the engine can always "push" exhaust gas harder with resultant back pressure on the exhause side, but unless you put forced induction on the front end, you're still only dealing with "ambient" air that has to flow through all the intake side before it get's used and exhausted out. You really don't see any good gains from an intake (granted the stock system is ample) on a "regular" car until you mod the engine and exhaust. On the LSXs, Hemis, etc, where the stock intakes are phenomenal flow'rs, you see LTFTs and KR much quicker with exhaust mods, and eventually need to open up the Intake (and at some point might consider a TB, but alot of people push the stock TB well into the mid 400s WHP).

However, to add a devil's advocate to my own post above, the one good benefit to increasing exhaust flow is that the PCM can run more spk timing with less KR to avoid a lean condition on the front end.

I had the Injen intake on my car, and I can honestly say that the only thing that it did was provide a little better throttle response and a cool sounding sucking air noise. Oh, and a two mpg increase. Now I'm back to my modded stock setup. You couldn't pay me to put the Injen back on my car! Injen sent me a brand new system as a result of the mount breaking and putting a hole in the main pipe. Still, I will not put the new one on.

I had the Injen intake on my car, and I can honestly say that the only thing that it did was provide a little better throttle response and a cool sounding sucking air noise. Oh, and a two mpg increase. Now I'm back to my modded stock setup. You couldn't pay me to put the Injen back on my car! Injen sent me a brand new system as a result of the mount breaking and putting a hole in the main pipe. Still, I will not put the new one on.
The injen has alot going for it design wise as far as the intake tube itself. The MAF is away from any bend down stream, and there looks to be a neck-down right before the curve into the TB, which would give you good acceleration of ambient air right at the TB and better throttle response. Some argue that it will effect top end, but I'd rather have better throttle tip-in response than another couple hp at 6500rpm or something.

Where is the IAT sensor located? I looked at your picks and wonder where it's at on the injen tube.

I would definately kill for better throttle response. I swear my car is comparable to a 3 year old. I nail the gas.. it looks at me blankly digesting what I have told it to do..then it makes an attempt to go WOT.

ok I'm done here. We could write a book about induction with all this info here lol.

As for the IAT sensor, I didn't notice one either, I think it's built into the MAF somehow. There's no sensor on the stock tubing or a bung on the injen piping to hold one.

Mike

I would definately kill for better throttle response. I swear my car is comparable to a 3 year old. I nail the gas.. it looks at me blankly digesting what I have told it to do..then it makes an attempt to go WOT.
Have you reset the PCM with an overnight battery off? If not, try pulling your negative on your battery overnight. Then the next day, constantly punch the throttle everytime you take off. I'm not sure and have not seen the G6 throttle learn parameters, but that's a poor mans way of tuning the T system to the driver. The throttle response problem is also inherent to a DBW system, so it will never have the response of a cable T (there's alot going on when you hit the gas that the PCM and TPS have to comprehend).

You could always fab a neck down at the TB, though you'll lose a little upper end from it...

As for the IAT sensor, I didn't notice one either, I think it's built into the MAF somehow. There's no sensor on the stock tubing or a bung on the injen piping to hold one.
That really sucks. Repositioning the IAT is such a key to getting an intake to really make power. That's one drawback to me only having this car for the 24 month lease I have, I'm not planning to do anything to it. If I get a chance, I'll check out the MAF and see if the IAT is removable from the MAF. I'd like to pop it into the air box and see what kind of results I could get.

ok I found this over on G6Board. It is built into the MAF, and the 2 wires for it are the TAN and TAN/BLACK. TAN is the signal, and the other one is the return. The other 3 wires are for the MAF.

Mike

Ewww.. bad design.. IATs have been known to go bad.. so i take it that means you have to buy an expensive MAF when it does.

Ewww.. bad design.. IATs have been known to go bad.. so i take it that means you have to buy an expensive MAF when it does.
Yuck is right.

Most of the time you can argue that the IAT (and MAF for that matter) is required for proper emissions performance, so most dealers will replace them under warranty up to 7 years and 80,000 miles (IIRC).

But it still does not bode well for us. I wonder if I can get a hold of the IAT specifics and find out if another IAT could be placed in the air box instead.

However, if it is built into, and I mean, INTO, the MAF, it may be decently shielded, and the MAF is close to the air box...so a relocated IAT may not bring about much change to begin with.

Does anyone have a scan tool to take IAT readings?

speaking of the MAF, miscreant you might know this: I read in a few places that some people removed their "MAF screen"... not necessarily from a G6, but any car in general. Specifically I also read it in a GTO forum. That's the screen attached to one end outlet of the MAF right? What's the purpose of this screen? My last car didn't have a screen on the MAF.

Mike

speaking of the MAF, miscreant you might know this: I read in a few places that some people removed their "MAF screen"... not necessarily from a G6, but any car in general. Specifically I also read it in a GTO forum. That's the screen attached to one end outlet of the MAF right? What's the purpose of this screen? My last car didn't have a screen on the MAF.

Mike
The screen is used to smooth out turbulent air flow over the sensor. Removing it is not the best idea, When I had my Grand Am, I scanned my PCM with and without the screen. When it was out the readings where much more erratic.

The screen is used to smooth out turbulent air flow over the sensor. Removing it is not the best idea, When I had my Grand Am, I scanned my PCM with and without the screen. When it was out the readings where much more erratic.
+1, though the screen has two purposes. 1) as above, and 2) to protect the MAF sensor filament from damage, excessive moisture build-up, etc.

Whether removing it works or not is fully dependent on many other situations. On a stock LS1 you see little improvement from removing it. But for better breathing engines (like the Z06 motors of past, see below, or modified engines), you see more improvement. Turbulence at the MAF is mainly caused by back-pressure from choke points father down on the intake side, like the TB or manifold - improve these areas to the flow rate of the stock MAF, and removing the screen will show minimal turbulence (which is what you see on modified LS1s, etc). GM even removed the MAF screen from the 02 Z06 MAF when it got it's HP bump, and supposedly that was part of the cause. You see, for some reason, some After market MAFs cause PCMs to go crazy, and the LSx engines are one of those beasts. Most Aftermarkets throw codes and such, and without tuning them out with a custom tune, running the stock MAF is the only thing you can do. So removing the MAF screen to get a little better flow rate is the only thing they can do. Most, when they tune, tune the MAF right out, and go MAFless...

But again, until you improve the flow downstream of the MAF, the screen is rather important.

Interestingly enough, turbulence at the MAF is a very good indication that your flow up to the MAF is fine, but your flow past the MAF is poor (kinda in line with this discussion about airboxes, cone filters, etc.) If you have erratic MAF readings, it's because the air is coming in fine, but not flowing down the tube well, and "bottling up" at the MAF. Tuners use MAF readings to find bottlenecks - the more erratic the readings, they look to the tube, TB and manifold (and heads, etc...) Smooth MAF readings but rich conditions and KR, they look to the intake box, filter, MAF neck, etc...

yeah removing the screen was a big waste of time.. I actually lost mine and wasn't able to put in back in .. made my car a PITA to tune..

You mentioned a Camero muffler....whats a camero muffler? Does it have a center intake and two outlets?

You mentioned a Camero muffler....whats a camero muffler? Does it have a center intake and two outlets?
It its just used to discribe a style of muffler. one inlet abd outlet on one side and a outlet on the other side.

You mentioned a Camero muffler....whats a camero muffler? Does it have a center intake and two outlets?

you mentioned a Camero muffler....whats a 'Camero'?? is that anything like a Chevrolet 'Camaro'????:rolleyes:

Haha.. I was wondering who said 'Camero'.. I was going to slap myself if It had been me... whew!

Haha.. I was wondering who said 'Camero'.. I was going to slap myself if It had been me... whew!


nope! you're off the hook....... :D

Does Flowmaster or Magnaflow make one like that to replace that resonater in the back???

So, in simple terms, if we were to change the air box and the resonator along with the tube that runs to the engine will it give a gain say in HP and speed? Or, are you saying it will slow down the car. I'm personally not a racer and I don't dyno. I drive almost 50 miles a day roundtrip to and from work and my max speed is 75 to 80 mph. But, I'd like to feel more power in my engine. With simple mods like aftermarket K7N filter and tubes to the engine and a magnaflow or flowmaster work to make me feel like i'm driving a semi-muscle car? Remember, I have everyday use I don't race nor do I dyno, bottom line, will i feel a bit more speed and power with these changes during normal driving?

Thanks....

Wow i just skimmed through this cat fight LOL
Not Pretty Arguing over a cone filter versus square come on.
I def not gonna star an argument but i think it easier to move a cone shape into spaces than a box or square?? If there are no "true gains"

Im about to get an intake. Dont plan on swiss cheeseing anything on my car LOL

Post the dyno slip WITH YOUR cars info on it !!!!

disreguard, that should be on Page Two

...Im about to get an intake. Dont plan on swiss cheeseing anything on my car LOL

I think most of the aftermarket intakes dont require
you cutting anything. Although the K&N/Ingen return line hook up may.

What cha getting??

I had a thought, good sirs! (It's shocking, I know)
Earlier in the thread, someone mentioned battery relocation and fusebox relocation as a means to create room for an intake set-up that would be more direct to the TB.
Why don't we move the battery into the trunk? I'm sure there's ample space back there for it. If not, why not fab a little set-up where the stock box sits and move it over there? The fusebox is the one thing I still worry slightly about the relocation of (all those damnable wires...), that and (correct me if I'm mistaken) but isn't that the PCM that sits right in front of the battery? How do you suppose we relocate that? I'm thinking we could keep it in that same area (for simplicity's sake) and just use some metal screws or something similar to secure it to one of the sheetmetal bits in that same area?
Once again, I don't know what to do about that fuse box.
I'll take a look here after work and see what can be done in the way of moving it around, as well as the battery and PCM, and post pictures (and, hopefully some concept drawings) of what I have in mind.
If it all works out, and people are interested, I'm more than happy to throw together a few packages of the parts that I'll use for it.

i dont know about you guys but im fricken tired. nice thread too. all that reading did me in. night....

my solution to the debating....if your not satisfied with the car HP why the hell did you by the car? put all your guys' knowledge into building a forced induction application? (btw, im under the radar on my supercharger claim, im staying quiet til the install is done cuz these freaks on here are harsh to my forced induction application of a supercharger. ladies and gents, stay tuned cuz the first supercharged G6 will be unvield soon...dun dun dun)

all i can say is my supercharged G6 will beat any other G6 out there...of course after the install is complete as tons of custom mods are underway that i did not plan on but will be a masterpeice. tata gotta go...and remember, stay tuned in!

all i can say is my supercharged G6 will beat any other G6 out there...of course after the install is complete as tons of custom mods are underway that i did not plan on but will be a masterpeice. tata gotta go...and remember, stay tuned in!

Does that include the GXP.R? The RWD conversion with the LS2 V8? 450 horsepower? If you've got a '6 putting that up at the crank.. what's your plan for our piddley-ass tranny?
Call me crazy, but with all the money being spent on R&D, I'm becoming severely tempted to go find an LS2 and do a RWD set-up of my own. At least there's evidence off that being done.

http://www.seriouswheels.com/cars/top-2008-Pontiac-G6-GXP-R.htm

Does that include the GXP.R? The RWD conversion with the LS2 V8? 450 horsepower? If you've got a '6 putting that up at the crank.. what's your plan for our piddley-ass tranny?
Call me crazy, but with all the money being spent on R&D, I'm becoming severely tempted to go find an LS2 and do a RWD set-up of my own. At least there's evidence off that being done.

http://www.seriouswheels.com/cars/top-2008-Pontiac-G6-GXP-R.htm

dont give a .... about the tranny. im going to sell it once its complete and let the person who buys my car fool with the tranny. btw, the s/c set up was for only a 30-40HP gain, not anything drastic. and i really dont race my car around either. i just like to know i have some extra power on those on-ramps...or occasional stop light.

Haha just waded through this (got a little bored around pg. 5 or so and skimmed until the 2008-09 posts :p) - Definitely summed up best by: "my solution to the debating....if your not satisfied with the car HP why the hell did you by the car?" Then again, I'm coming from a Grand Prix Comp G that I modded up to 291 whp, so I guess I wasn't satisfied either :rolleyes:

Definite highlight of the thread was the "I see dumb people" :cheers:, and I'm also surprised no one called out the OP back in the day for saying he had to "develop" his pictures. Even back in 2005 I & pretty much everyone I knew on internet forums had the technology & capability to post digital pics pretty much instantaneously :beam:

I'm also surprised no one called out the OP back in the day for saying he had to "develop" his pictures. Even back in 2005 I & pretty much everyone I knew on internet forums had the technology & capability to post digital pics pretty much instantaneously :beam:

x2