no engine power runs fine however - Pontiac G6 Forum
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post #1 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-17-2011, 01:55 PM Thread Starter
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no engine power runs fine however

i have a 2006 g6 2.4 vvt eco tech. my problem is i have no low end power at all the car has 60000 miles on it. i have not put plugs or wires into the car as it has iridium plugs and that seema way early for those to be junk and they look fine. i have cleaned the maf sensor. merging on the freeway is a challange and the car is just an over all dog but seems to power thru it. it also seems to be only a problem when there is a big load on the engine. hot days with the ac on and merging mostly. it has never misfired or had the check engine light come on. the check engine light has flashed at me while merging on the freeway but has never stayed on. i know most people think that when it flashes at you that meens a misfire. my understanding of a flashing check engine light is that the car is telling you right now its having a problem. the only code i get out of it is P0650 Malfunction Indicator Lamp (MIL) Control Circuit Malfunction which tells you really nothing. its a junk code that should be linked to something else. but cant seem to get anything else to come up. im thinking it may need a new ignition control module? does this car have one or is it all in the bcm ? and ive also see that the cats like to get pluged on these cars. i really dont want to hack a hole in my exhaust to see if thats the problem is there any other way to check for a plugged cat? it also has never had the rotten egg smell to point me in that dirrection. i also dont want to pull the 02 out of it to open the path to throw another code if i do end up taking it in to the dealer. also how does the vvt work ? is there a sensor that changes the timing that may be messing up ?
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post #2 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-17-2011, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMlover View Post
i have a 2006 g6 2.4 vvt eco tech. my problem is i have no low end power at all the car has 60000 miles on it. i have not put plugs or wires into the car as it has iridium plugs and that seema way early for those to be junk and they look fine. i have cleaned the maf sensor. merging on the freeway is a challange and the car is just an over all dog but seems to power thru it. it also seems to be only a problem when there is a big load on the engine. hot days with the ac on and merging mostly. it has never misfired or had the check engine light come on. the check engine light has flashed at me while merging on the freeway but has never stayed on. i know most people think that when it flashes at you that meens a misfire. my understanding of a flashing check engine light is that the car is telling you right now its having a problem. the only code i get out of it is P0650 Malfunction Indicator Lamp (MIL) Control Circuit Malfunction which tells you really nothing. its a junk code that should be linked to something else. but cant seem to get anything else to come up. im thinking it may need a new ignition control module? does this car have one or is it all in the bcm ? and ive also see that the cats like to get pluged on these cars. i really dont want to hack a hole in my exhaust to see if thats the problem is there any other way to check for a plugged cat? it also has never had the rotten egg smell to point me in that dirrection. i also dont want to pull the 02 out of it to open the path to throw another code if i do end up taking it in to the dealer. also how does the vvt work ? is there a sensor that changes the timing that may be messing up ?
A flashing MIL is consistent with engine misfire. A higher engine load stresses the weak links in the chain. Do the basic stuff: first check the condition of plugs, coils & wires & go from there. If you can access a scan tool, look at the misfire data. It will tell you which cylinder/s is misfiring. An engine can be misfiring & not set a misfire DTC. Seen it many times.
It could, of course, also be a fuel supply problem. Possibly an injector is going pear-shaped.




Last edited by greenman; 07-18-2011 at 02:39 PM.
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post #3 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-17-2011, 03:04 PM Thread Starter
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its a coil on plug set up. ill try the plugs but ive never heard of doing iridum plugs at 60000 maybe closer to 90000 now on platium plugs that time frame is a lot more realisitic. and i think i would get a consitant misfire if the plugs were the problem aswell as getting a p0300 that ive never had. it did misfire once but the tranny didnt want to shift and i belive the misfire came because of the rev limiter when it got close or past 6000rpms
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post #4 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-17-2011, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by GMlover View Post
its a coil on plug set up. ill try the plugs but ive never heard of doing iridum plugs at 60000 maybe closer to 90000 now on platium plugs that time frame is a lot more realisitic. and i think i would get a consitant misfire if the plugs were the problem aswell as getting a p0300 that ive never had. it did misfire once but the tranny didnt want to shift and i belive the misfire came because of the rev limiter when it got close or past 6000rpms
I caught that you had COP & edited while you were posting. My bad. I would probably put new plugs somewhere near the bottom then of the list of things to do. First thing I'd do is look at the misfire data. That should give a big clue. Hopefully narrow it down to one cylinder. I use ScanXL with the GM enhanced plug-in on a laptop.




Last edited by greenman; 07-18-2011 at 02:36 PM.
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post #5 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-17-2011, 04:02 PM Thread Starter
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definitely not the plugs... is there any easy way to test the cop? ohm it out?
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post #6 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-17-2011, 04:49 PM
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I was doing some research on that P0650. Now I have to wonder if that is what's causing the intermittent flashing MIL issue. I just don't have an answer. I'll get back if I can find something. Does the MIL flashing ONLY occur under higher engine load? Try pushing it hard on a good hill & see if you can make it flash. So you have cleared the P0650 code & it's returned? How many times?




Last edited by greenman; 07-17-2011 at 05:14 PM.
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post #7 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-17-2011, 06:05 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by greenman View Post
I was doing some research on that P0650. Now I have to wonder if that is what's causing the intermittent flashing MIL issue. I just don't have an answer. I'll get back if I can find something. Does the MIL flashing ONLY occur under higher engine load? Try pushing it hard on a good hill & see if you can make it flash. So you have cleared the P0650 code & it's returned? How many times?
the flashing has only occured in the high load situations its very intermitten its maybe only flashed 3 or 4 times. i had it on a tech 2 and when we cleared the code it came right back without even having the check engine light flash or come on again. i cant make it flash ... its only flashed when the cars lacking power almost to the point where it wants to die. when the problems worse then it usual is. i cant get the code to stay away.
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post #8 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-17-2011, 06:11 PM Thread Starter
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ive also thought the the voltage may be lacking to give the spark needed. but i went and had the battery tested it was fine. i have had the car not start on me twice but after i jumped it the car was fine and havent had a prob with that since. i wish the car had a voltage gauage i could watch. it is the original battery. i put a new air filter in and cleaned the maf sensor and put the new plugs in also put some fuel system cleaner into the car
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post #9 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-17-2011, 06:28 PM Thread Starter
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the check engine light does come on under key on situation and turns off like its sappose to. but from what i read on the p0650
When is the code detected?- An excessively high voltage is sent to ECM through the MIL circuit under the condition that calls for MIL light up.
- An excessively low voltage is sent to ECM through the MIL circuit under the condition that calls for MIL not to light up.
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post #10 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-17-2011, 06:48 PM Thread Starter
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If P0650 is set by itself and was the original vehicle concern, complete the current SI diagnostics. ECM replacement is not suggested for P0650 set by itself. ECMs returned and inspected by engineering have been found no trouble found. Most P0650 codes have been repaired by either a wiring or IPC repair.

this doesnt sound right for my situation the car deffinatly has an issue and this sounds to be pointing me into a ecm flash
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post #11 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-17-2011, 07:10 PM
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So you also have an intermittent no start condition. That definitely makes the cheese more binding. I don't know what a GM extended warranty goes for but you may want to consider it unless you're really at least a shade tree mechanic or know one. And you will absolutely need the service manual (paper about $150; DVD about $400). Just sayin'.

All or some of the issues you are having may be connected. I see you are adding posts while I compose this so some of this might not apply.


The possibilities for setting the P0650 are:


All apply to the MIL circuit:

ECM is bad-possibly a high resistance connector issue (may be as simple as cleaning & reseating the connector)
IPC is bad-possibly a high resistance connector issue
The ground control circuit wire is open or shorted
The MIL ignition voltage circuit is open or shorted

So what it amounts to is you can't rely on anything your MIL does right now.

From the '06 G6 SM:

Circuit/System Testing
Turn OFF the ignition.
Disconnect the engine control module (ECM).
Turn ON the ignition with the engine OFF.
⇒ If the MIL is still ON, test the MIL control circuit for a short to ground.

⇒ If the MIL control circuit tested OK and the MIL stayed ON, replace the IPC.

⇒ If the MIL control circuit tested OK and the MIL went out when the ECM was disconnected, replace the ECM.

Measure for 12 volts from the MIL ignition voltage circuit in the IPC harness connector to a ground.
⇒ If there is less than 12 volts, test the MIL ignition voltage circuit for an open, or a short to ground, and an open fuse.

Remove the fuse that supplies voltage to the MIL.
Measure for less than 1 volt from the MIL control circuit in the ECM harness connector to a good ground.
⇒ If there is more than 1 volt, test the MIL control circuit for a short to voltage.

Install the fuse that supplies voltage to the MIL.
The MIL should illuminate with a 3-amp fused jumper wire connected between the MIL control circuit in the ECM harness connector and a good ground.
⇒ If the MIL does not illuminate, test the MIL control circuit for an open or high resistance.

⇒ If the MIL control circuit tests OK, replace the IPC.

⇒ If the MIL does illuminate, but does not when commanded ON with a scan tool, replace the ECM.



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post #12 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-17-2011, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMlover View Post
the flashing has only occured in the high load situations its very intermitten its maybe only flashed 3 or 4 times. i had it on a tech 2 and when we cleared the code it came right back without even having the check engine light flash or come on again. i cant make it flash ... its only flashed when the cars lacking power almost to the point where it wants to die. when the problems worse then it usual is. i cant get the code to stay away.
So if you could trust the MIL, that would indicate it's misfiring under load.



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post #13 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-17-2011, 07:25 PM
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ive also thought the the voltage may be lacking to give the spark needed. but i went and had the battery tested it was fine. i have had the car not start on me twice but after i jumped it the car was fine and havent had a prob with that since. i wish the car had a voltage gauage i could watch. it is the original battery. i put a new air filter in and cleaned the maf sensor and put the new plugs in also put some fuel system cleaner into the car
Cranks ok but no start?



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post #14 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-17-2011, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMlover View Post
the check engine light does come on under key on situation and turns off like its suppose to.
Tells you that it passes the bulb check, ruling out a bad bulb as the cause.




Last edited by greenman; 07-18-2011 at 02:55 PM.
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post #15 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-17-2011, 07:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMlover View Post
If P0650 is set by itself and was the original vehicle concern, complete the current SI diagnostics. ECM replacement is not suggested for P0650 set by itself. ECMs returned and inspected by engineering have been found no trouble found. Most P0650 codes have been repaired by either a wiring or IPC repair.
I don't know where you got this but it says: "Most P0650 codes have been repaired by either a wiring or IPC repair." By "IPC repair" he probably meant IPC replacement.



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